I can foresee this becoming quite a long post, so please just bear with me to the end.
I'm a member of a tightwad forum, and most of the people on there are, for lack of a better description, a bit right of center politically (I'm not, I just go there for the tightwaddery). There's a "Debates and Personal Opinions" subforum, and someone has started a thread about Barack Obama. Nothing new there, but this particular thread has now turned to the discussion of flag flying - probably because Obama refuses to wear an American flag lapel pin. Most people on this forum say you are unpatriotic and un-American if you don't fly a flag or wear one on your person. So I'm going to share my opinion with you on this, and I want to hear yours. Remember, opinions are like assholes - every has one and it usually stinks - so we're going to have a big group cyberhug when we're finished with this discussion!
Everytime I come back to the U.S., I am shocked to see the number of American flags flying - in front of buildings, in front of houses, on mailboxes, on shopping bags, on people - they're just everywhere. I'm sorry to say but the uber-patriotism scares the shit out of me. I can understand the reasons behind the surge in patriotism. September 11, 2001 was a horrible, horrible event, and the nation banded together to try and deal with it. I get that. But all the flag flying in the world isn't going to prevent something like that happening again. The rest of the world has dealt with terrorism for a long, long time, and they don't feel the need to wave their flag(s) at every opportunity.
I went to Florida on vacation five weeks after September 11, 2001, and we had a British newspaper delivered to our hotel everyday. One morning I opened it to find an article about Gerry Adams, who was the leader of Sinn Fein, the political wing of the Irish Republican Army - a terrorist organization that has wreaked havoc on Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland, and the United Kingdom for a long time. Thousands of people have died at their hands. Anyway, Gerry was at an IRA fundraiser in New York City, a city that five weeks earlier had suffered the worst terrorist attack in history. And now those people, those flag-waving, patriotic Americans, were courting the leader of a terrorist organization. They were paying $1000 a plate to hear him speak. And then he visited the White House (again!). So the U.S. fights terrorism when it suits. Sorry, but you can't have good terrorists and bad terrorists. Are white terrorists okay but Middle Eastern ones aren't? They're all terrorists. But in 2003 we started waging war a country that had nothing to do with 9/11, and we flew our flag, but we still get in bed with people who terrorize other people (just not Americans - so that makes it okay!) And in the meantime, more than 33,000 American servicemen and women - and thousands more Iraqis - have been injured or killed
I do understand why Barack Obama won't wear the flag pin. Probably for the same reasons I wouldn't. It just seems to me that the flag wavers talk the talk, but they don't walk the walk. I love my country. Someone asked me why I don't give up my citizenship. I'll never give up my citizenship. I'm proud of where I came from and what my country has achieved. But we've lost our way. We're broken, and we need to be fixed. Sometimes the most responsible thing you can do as a citizen is question your leadership.
Okay, your turn.
Sunday, August 03, 2008
Sticking with controversy...
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24 comments:
I agree with your take on terrorism, a terrorist is a terrorist, you don't get to pick and choose. I say this as a person very proud of her Irish heritage (just look at my children's names). Heck, my aunt in Catty flies the American flag, the Irish Flag and a Penn State flag in her yard. That being said I don't like that Obamma has a "thing" about wearing a flag pin, and if it weren't for the things that have come up about him and his wife I probably wouldn't have noticed this, but HE made a big deal about it, so now it stands out. He should have never addressed the issue unless he is courting the Move On crowd. I think it is great that people fly flags and are proud of the sacrifices this represents to them. I do not think less of anyone one who chooses not to fly one for whatever the reason, but I don't see how Americans can be offended by seeing the American flag flying. Who cares if someone is proud of their country. It is a flag, not something that should cause tension in the very country it represents. All being said, with differing opinions on the war and all, America was the first to step up after the tsunami disaster and is still attempting to help in Burma. We step up to help where we can, even with those we disagree. There are things to be proud of reguardless of who is president or speaker of the house. If my neighbor is flying a flag I don't even think about much less think they are "uber-patriotic". And if they are not flying a flag I do not think them unpatriotic, I don't think anything about them except perhaps they choose a strange color to paint their house (Its kinda purple/pink)
OOoooo, now THIS is a post I can ramble on in!
There was a good Article in either Time or Newsweek recently about how cons and libs define "patriotism" differently.
Cons = 'my country is a great country, love it or leave, support it always, even when it's wrong.'
Libs = 'my country is founded on great principles, and I want to see it live up to the principles at all times. If it's broke, it needs to be fixed.'
So the libs tend to focus on the negative, because that's what needs attention.
The cons see this as the libs finding fault and take great offense.
In each case, it's analogous to the relationship one has with one's own family. Con = you love your family because they're YOUR family, right or wrong. Libs = always strive to improve your relationship with your family.
Interesting that Libs as a group seem to see both sides of patriotism: they want to fix their country BECAUSE they love it. Cons just want to love it no matter what.
AFA Obama's flag pin, he's wearing it again, for all the wrong reasons, IMO. He was trying to make a point which was lost on many people.
AFA the flag-waving, I'm totally in your camp, Vicki. Pride and patriotism are fine; rampant nationalism is a scary few steps from fascism. I know a lot of people who are quick to hammer others for not flying the flag, supporting the troops, etc., but their own support is limited to yellow ribbons on their car and flags on their houses - they don't even vote.
...and the ones who are NOT obsessed with overt displays of patriotism are often consistent voters who are involved (care packages for the troops, lobbying, fundraising, etc.)
Jesus dissed the publicly uber-religious people of his time, "verily I say unto you: they already have their reward." Putting on a show is just a show, living it is another thing. IMO, if you ain't living your patriotism, put your flag away - or at least STFU and stop assuming someone who's not a fascist doesn't love their country.
Wow, I haven't read so much GOOD opinion/information in the Morning Crawl ALL summer long. I am glad you guys posted/commented, because I don't think anyone does enough to show his/her feelings.
I have my opinions, but seem to agree with both sides at times; I guess depending on the issue, I'm on the fence. I'm not very political but I do care (is that possible). I really dislike all the political ads and try to keep up without total involvement.
When I go to my parents' home and the old folks are there, it is funny to see them "discuss" issues. I just sit back and take it in (not usually choosing sides unless someone is just wrong in something they say - not wrong in my view, just out-and-out misinformed wrong).
Being in class where students don't even know why we do the pledge, it sickens me at times. They don't understand why we do it or what it stands for. Most don't even know the words and we do it EVERY GD Day. I've been doing since elementary days at Sheckler and if people could see how laxed some kids are, they'd be sick also.
I know we fight for the right to do it (or NOT).
I'll stop now.
Steve,
That really interests me: you say you don't get involved, aren't political, agree with both sides, sit on the fence, don't participate in political discussions.
...then you say it sickens you that your students don't take the pledge seriously or know what it stands for.
Those attitudes seem contradictory to me.
That's not a criticism, it's an observation - I think yours is a pretty typical American sentiment these days: We love our home and America has done many great things of which we can be proud. But there's a lot malaise and a growing sense of helplessness a/o futility about having an impact, which leads to political apathy. The founding fathers would kick you in the nuts for that, btw, and the current gov't is pretty tickled about it, imo.
I wish Redsie Laubach could weigh in on this one.
I have a hippy chic in her early 20's working for me who's very anti-war. I asked, "and what do you do about that?" She shrugged her shoulders and seem confused: "what CAN you do - it's the government." She doesn't even vote.
I explained to her that she and a few thousand of her hippy friends could show up at her representative's office to express their opinions... and that they could do that EVERY day, day after day... carrying signs, getting news coverage, making herself heard, swinging opinions with reasonable arguments...and that the web would make all that pretty easy to organize.
...and if nothing else, doing so would light a fire under the butts of those who are in favor of it. Maybe taking care of our troops would move up the priority ladder.
my head spins when I read posts like these. No wonder so many Americans are more interested in seeing Brangelinas babies.....
All I can think is that people wave a flag for many differant reasons. Some retired or active military some showing suport of are troops some for there own personal reasons. None of which I feel are wrong.
Yikes, what have I started!?!
People do wave flags for lots of reasons, and I don't have a problem with that. What I have a problem with is nationalism, which like Steve says, is a few steps away from fascism. It scares me that I don't recognise my own country when I go home. And I blame the current administration for that. There seems to be a real climate of fear, and again, I blame the current administration for that. I'm sorry if this post seems a bit all over the place - it's 4 in the morning and I can't sleep. I guess my question is (a) what is everyone afraid of? and (b) how does flag waving and overt displays of patriotism solve it and/or help people deal with it?
what I am most afraid of is the lowering stock market the weakened economy, outsourcing to everywhere and the high unemployment rate.
Thank you Mr. Bush
flag waving doesn't solve anything it is mearly people showing there suport of the troops or there way of saying they are proud to be an american.
MJ, I wonder if people are more interested in Branjolina because that's what really interests them, or because that's what's "in the news." AFA the economic troubles we face today, I can't help but think it's more of Reagan's "strategic deficits." Bush will ultimately succeed in getting rid of social services and deliver a smaller federal gov't by bankrupting it.
Vicki, fascism is alive and well in America. On another forum I frequent, the OT area is filled with old white guys - you'd cringe if you read some of their attitudes - and a LOT of these guys are self-professed patriots, veterans, etc. Very stupid, very sad.
Naomi Wolf on fascism in America. Chilling...
http://
www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjALf12PAWc
its in the news because lots of people love gossip and it certainly does sell, it takes people away from the real problems of the world and causes people not to have to think to hard.
Being a teacher, I can tell you that most "students" don't want to think at ALL. They want everything given to them and they don't want to know how to get an answer, they just want the answer. We are now in a society (at least what I see in my school) that wants instant gratification with no work involved in getting that gratification.
Mr. President, I'm sorry to tell you that British kids are no different. They don't want to think. Period. And they have such an attitude of entitlement, I want to slap them silly.
I keep trying to compose my comment...but have been having trouble. I'm not sure I get what you feel Vicki. Not that I'm saying you are wrong, but around here(and in the past two days, I've actually gone looking), I just don't see a whole lot of flags on display. Maybe Virginians aren't patriotic? ;o)
I see a lot of the support the troops magnets on cars. But then I see a lot of other things stuck on cars that support all kinds of things.
I always thought it was neat that my Dad put up the flag on every patriotic holiday and even some days with historic importance. He's a veteran and most of his brothers were as well, so they have tons of war stories. My Dad is proud of that and proud of his country.
I'm sure there are some flag wavers who don't walk the walk, but like I said, but I don't think they are doing something wrong. If it makes them feel united or patriotic, I'd rather see them do that than see people disrespect the flag(uggg...I sound like my Dad).
I know what you are saying Jamie, sometimes it feels like people put you down for trying to show support, as with flag waving. I don't see the big deal with being patriotic, and find it strange that people are offended by the flag. Just because you don't support the president or a party doesn't make you less American, and support doesn't make you a fascist...talk about taking something to the extreme. We jump from talking about the flag to fascists in America. There are extremists on both sides of the aisle and to ignore that is wrong. You can find crazy talk on the internet without looking too hard, but do we have to bring it to this board? I mean it is one thing to express a viewpoint, but another to start putting others down or offending those of us with a differing view. I am republican and I don't feel the President is a fascist. I disagreed with President Clinton's policies on a regular basis, but just because he is a liberal I didn't label him a Communist. I just don't understand why you have to demonize someone to make your point. Its like those people who put down Tony Snow when he died last month. Here was a guy that by all accounts was a good man, but because some disagreed with him they cheered his death publicly. It makes me sick. I disagree with Senator Kennedy, but I said a prayer for him and his family at his diagnosis and surgery and hope for the best for him. Why do we have to be so venomous in our support or disagreement? Maybe that is why nothing gets done anymore in Congress, we can only see each other in extremes and with unabashed hatred.
Nice post, Tracy. I must confess that I often see things in extremes and that is something I need to watch out for.
I never used to understand the whole flying the flag thing. Then 9/11 happened. After that, I wore a flag pin and put a flag sticker on my car (I had no other stickers on my car.) to show my sadness and support for the victims and their families. Although I didn't lose anyone close to me that day, I realized that I very easily could have since the actions that day showed how vulnerable our country was to attack.
The feeling of a united America following 9/11 was a nice change from the usual bickering and division in this country. For a short time, it seems that Americans focused on what we all had in common and appreciated the good in our country.
As for flying the flag on holidays, I think of all the soldiers and their families who gave so much so that civilians like me can enjoy the freedoms that we have in this country.
As far as the economy...people always blame or credit the President for a good or bad economy when it is actually Congress that has the major effect on the economy since they pass the laws. Really, much of the political power lies with Congress.
"I mean it is one thing to express a viewpoint, but another to start putting others down or offending those of us with a differing view."
I assume my comments engendered this.
If so, I'm sincerely sorry you were offended, Tracy - that wasn't my objective. Maybe I'm the only one here who enjoys talking about this stuff.
Frankly, I think the reason so few are here is because lively discussion has been banned - but that's just my opinion.
But, I do REALLY, really, hate fascism. I find nationalism (note: 'nationalism,' NOT 'patriotism') naive and distasteful. Lately it's hard to differentiate "nationalism" and "jingoism," so maybe I'm mixing them up.
Since this is potentially my last expressed opinion here, I'll say it once more: our FEDERAL GOVERNMENT is not what the Constitution intended, and divergence from the Constitution is un-American, by definition.
That's NOT a partisan jab, and I do NOT blame the Bush administration - it's been picking up mass since the early 1900's. We are supposed to be "United States," not "America." I'd love to share facts which support my conclusion.
I do think Bush is a fascist, tho, and that's a separate problem. Again, that's not some name-calling put-down, it's a statement of the facts as I see them. If you disagree with my perception of reality, please prove me wrong. Again (it's so easy to mis-read tone into written words), I'm not trying to be some know-it-all dickhead here, I'm looking to a community of people I should have a lot in common with/ should be able to relate to who see things differently than I do that can explain it to me.
But, allow for the possibility that it can't be disproved because it's true - just like I'm begging anyone here to prove that it's not so I can sleep better at night.
History... doomed to repeat... blah, blah, blah.
Since I'm still here being a pain in everyone's ass, I'll throw this out there, too:
People don't know how to argue anymore.
People have opinions, based on stuff. Other people have different opinions, based on different stuff.
I'm interested in hearing other people's opinions, and when they're different than my own, I like to find out what stuff led them to their opinion. Maybe they know stuff I don't know, maybe there's new stuff, maybe my stuff has been proven wrong, etc.
Note that all of that can happen without resort to personal attacks, anger (or in fact, emotion), badgering, bullying, etc.
I change my opinion when someone makes a compelling, logically sound presentation of a different opinion and the stuff that led them to that it. I am improved by the process of arguing.
What ever happened to that? I really enjoy that.
In Congress: these are well-educated adults who make a lot of money and have a lot of power given to them by the people. The way they "debate" and "argue" is often appalling. I have this fantasy of the "good old days" where opposing politicians were "ladies" and "gentlemen" who could debate a topic with dignity, treat each other with courtesy, and go have a beer together at the end of the day as friends who each respect the commitment and integrity of one another.
Maybe that's just a fantasy.
It was not my intention to offend anyone, and I truly don't believe that anyone has been put down on this board. I certainly don't believe that anyone has been attacked personally. Tracy, I'm sorry you feel the way you do. Like Steve said, I would like to hear others opinions so I can understand what led you to that conclusion, and I'd like you to understand what led me to mine. I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion, and this is the last post I will make on this subject.
I'm not talking about flag flying on public holidays. I'm talking about flags everywhere, all the time. There are lots of American cemetaries in Europe, and on the anniversary of D-Day or on Memorial Day, those cemetaries are covered with flags, both American and the flag of whatever country the cemetary might be in. That's the only time a flag will be seen - on a public holiday or to remember a historic event. It's dignified and respectful. And that's how I think, in my opinion, a flag should be treated. In my opinion, to fly it constantly, or wear it on your person, or carry it around on a shopping bag, etc., is not respectful or dignified. It becomes a fashion statement or a symbol of something else. That's all I'm saying. By all means, fly your flag on July 4th and Memorial Day and President's Day. But all the time? Sorry, in my opinion, that's just tacky and has very little meaning. I never, ever said I was offended by the flag. All I'm saying is that in seeing it everywhere, all the time and in my opinion, it's not being treated with the respect and dignity it deserves.
Steve, I'm happy to talk politics or anything with you (or anyone else who wants to talk about anything) anytime you want. My e-mail is jcollo79@aol.co.uk.
Lastly, Steve, I agree with you on both counts regarding facism and arguing.
Peace.
I am having a hard time finding where anyone was put down or offended, by all means keep the lively discusion going I LOVE it. Everyone is entiltled to there own opinion. What else can we discuss???
I have to admit I had to get out my dictionary and look things up to keep them clear.
Fascism
Patriotism
Nationalism
Jingoism
Partisan
terrorism
uber-patriotic
I find it all very confusing. Maybe that is what government wants to do make it so I have no idea what the hell is going on.
I have to admit I had to get out my dictionary and look things up to keep them clear.
Awesome! I'm so glad to hear people (besides me) still do that!
I find it all very confusing. Maybe that is what government wants to do make it so I have no idea what the hell is going on.
You said a mouthful, there. That's also why I think you hear more about Brangolina than "real" news, too.
But don't you find that the media doesn't report on many issues and things going on? I've found out more by doing my own searching for information than in the newspaper or tv news.
I get so frustrated with the "fluff" they put on the news. How can anyone learn about the candidates or political issues completely?
My husband and I got in a long conversation last night on facism. I too had to look it up. Although I knew the definition, I had trouble understanding why it was used in reference to Bush.
My husband was better able to understand why people would label him as such. I am still not either understanding(I'm a little slow)or in agreement
Jamie, I'm pretty disgusted with the media. Especially the 24-hr news. They have so much time to fill that they just beat stuff, over, and over. They'll eventually start speculating wildly and hitting on the tiniest little insignificant stuff just to fill the airwaves.
From Wikipedia:
Various scholars attribute different characteristics to fascism, but the following elements are usually seen as its integral parts: nationalism, corporativism, militarism, authoritarianism, statism, dictatorship, populism, collectivism and economic planning. In addition, Fascism opposes classic political and economic liberalism, and communism.
I wouldn't argue about "collectivism" or "economic planning," but the Bush White House has certainly been very un-apologetic and open about all the others. I wish I could cite the source, but I know I heard an interview with Dick Cheney once in which he was explaining how they believe that the more power the president has (iow, free from Congressional or Judicial oversight), the more effectively the country can be run. They've made many changes (and tried to make many more) to consolidate power in the Executive to the exclusion of input from the other two branches. Then they stacked the deck by only hiring people to the justice dept. that were politically aligned to them. On and on.
I'm ashamed to say: I agree with them. Having one person hold all the power is efficient, and effective, providing that's the right person and their goals are good ones. Failing that, and in the spirit of "absolute power corrupts absolutely," our government was designed to EXPLICITLY PREVENT power from concentrating in any one branch. Why an elected official would oppose that, and why people would support it, really confuses me.
"In 232 years of independence, the United States has often fallen short of its values and ideals. But those values and ideals are what the flag embodies, not the failure to live up to them. To salute the flag is not to proclaim that America can do no wrong. It is to believe in its great capacity to do right."
lw, I like the quote. Where did you find it?
Jamie, my husband always says, "It's not news, it's CNN."
I kinda agree with Steve and Vicki. Most people have flags in their yards, but they put them up right after Sept. 11 and never thought about them again. In addition, most of these people don't follow proper flag etiquette - for example, the flag must be removed every night unless the flag is illuminated by a light. I have to admit, I am one of those people.
I used to wear the flag on my jacket also, but again, I never really thought about it after a few months after 911. Most people do things because it is what is popular, not because they think about what it stands for.
I agree, there are huge fundamental problems with our country and we need to start concentrating on how to fix ourselves instead of worrying about "fixing" everyone else by making them duplicates of us.....
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